John Hodgman and Jesse Thorn
Jesse “Baliff” Thorn is the host and producer of Bullseye and Jordan, Jesse, Go!, and the co-host and producer of Judge John Hodgman. He’s also the founder of the original Maximum Fun.
John Hodgman is the host of Judge John Hodgman, the co-creator with David Rees of DICKTOWN on FX/Hulu, the author of books like VACATIONLAND and MEDALLION STATUS, and doer of other things.
What is your favorite episode of Judge John Hodgman?
JT: I will, forever and always, be in love with the Bat Brothers. In short: two brothers bought a house together in rural Kansas for something like $50,000. The plan was to live there and save money. But then bats started getting into the bathroom. It would cost a few thousand dollars to fix the bat hole, and one brother thinks it isn’t worth it in a $50,000 house that they’re going to sell soon, anyway. The other one… well… doesn’t want bats in the bathroom. Just a magical situation.
JH: I happen to be very fond of a case between a mother and a daughter who had a dispute over what to do with the mom’s ashes when she passes away. The mom wanted to be flushed down the toilet at Disneyworld–or at least a resort near the Magic Kingdom–so that her ashes would help nurture the park’s many gardens. The daughter understandably didn’t want to flush her mom down the toilet in any theme park. I won’t tell you my final judgment, as I’d love for people to go listen to this one, and you already know the outcome Lauren, because you’re the daughter in question. I’m not just saying this to curry favor with your newsletter: I think about this case all the time. It’s not only fun and a little ridiculous, but both litigants were/are delightful, and like the best JJHO cases, it touches on real issues: how do we prepare for the (eventual) passing of a parent? How do we honor their end of life plans, and can the plumbing at Disneyworld handle human cremains?
What ingredients go into the perfect Judge John Hodgman episode?
JT: The dispute has to be real, it has to be between people who like each other, and the people have to be worth getting to know. Beyond that, anything goes.
John, when you are trying to come up with a ruling, what is going on in your head. In a very short time you are able to come up with something that is always both helpful and poetic.
JH: We have a few core principles that have emerged: People like what they like. People should be mindful of the work they leave for others. And if it’s not fun for everyone, it’s not fun at all. Behind every dumb dispute lurks what we’ve come to call “the crux:” the emotional underpinning of whether or not to let the dog lick the dinner plates or build a jellyfish aquarium in the den. Once that comes out, the verdict becomes plain pretty quickly. Are both parties being fair to each other? Is one making extra emotional or actual work for the other? There’s a reason so many of our couples are spouses, partners, and roommates: living with other people is challenging!
John, what is your favorite thing about Jesse? Jesse, what is your favorite thing about John?
JT: I’ve known John a long time now, and he’s one of the funniest and smartest people I know. But if pressed, I think I most enjoy his passion for other people. He gets so excited about the interesting people he knows, and I feel very lucky to be among them.
JH: Jesse is a profoundly skilled interviewer and just a deeply empathetic person. He’s taught me so much about how to gently get people to reveal themselves and really allow them to feel heard and not interrogated. His asides and interjections as Bailiff are always funny, but equally often help me see stuff in the conversation I’ve been missing. And he’s a perfect gift giver, because he’s very generous and pays attention to what people care about. He gave me a vintage Hartford Whalers ball cap–one of my obsessions. Every time I get a compliment on it (which is every time I wear it), I remember my friend Jesse.
John and Jesse, if you two were going to be guests on Judge John Hodgman what would your argument be about?
JT: We are only children. (Well, I’m a partial only child, I have much younger half-siblings.) Our argument would probably be about our inability to express what would otherwise be our argument, or possibly about the clear fact that if we have one argument it would definitely mean the end of our relationship forever.
JH: I like Tom Waits. Jesse doesn’t. Somehow our friendship survives.
Fill in the blank: you will like Judge John Hodgman if you like _____.
JT: Charming weirdos.
JH: Weird charmers. And Tom Waits
Who are your listeners? How would you describe them?
JT: They tend to fall into three groups: children who bring briefcases to school, parents of children who bring briefcases to school and former children who, when they were still in school, brought briefcases.
JH: As someone who brought a briefcase to school, I can concur that I often meet my people on the show: nerdy eccentrics and cheerful obsessives. But we also get litigants from all walks of life, all over the world, and my own world has been very happily expanded too by our guests and listeners from the trans and queer communities. I’m very proud folks of all backgrounds feel safe airing their grievances to us.
Any good fan interactions you can tell us about?
JT: In San Francisco the other day I cried with one listener about the Oakland A’s moving to Las Vegas and laughed with another about my elementary school yearbook (which he brought - apparently he was a couple years behind me). Our listeners are invariably the absolute sweetest. It’s an honor to work for them.
JH: I really appreciated Jesse crying over baseball, even though I don’t understand it. For me I was most recently blown away by all the people who showed up to our show in Vermont the day after the election. I didn’t know if I could do a comedy show, but I knew I didn’t want to be alone, and thank god or whatever, the people of Vermont were there to keep me (and each other) company. The show can get serious from time to time, but most importantly we want people to have a good time. Having a good time in the midst of all this pervasive sadness is, I think, an act of moral resistance.
How has the show changed since it began almost 30 years ago? How have you changed?
JT: I will cop to the fact that I imagined the show very differently. I mostly thought the hotter the conflict the funnier the show. John was pushier and sharper in the old days. Then we realized - people come to the show not for a sense of judgement but a sense of resolution. The premise of the show really is that it is possible to find peace and comfort in conflict.
JH: The only dispute I will no longer entertain is over how to load the dishwasher. Whoever is unloading the dishwasher gets to decide. The end. Otherwise, the court is open to the biggest, smallest, and even the most medium cases.
I have to ask you this because I’m obsessed with podcast marketing: what is the best way to grow a podcast?
The honest answer is: make a good podcast. I know that is glib, but it is all that’s left. That and going on other people’s podcasts and showing you are good at podcasting.
What’s a show that you love that everyone already knows about?
JT: I love Fresh Air. I listen to Fresh Air all the time. I love Terry Gross and I also love Dave Davies and Tonya Mosely. I like a thoughtful, insightful conversation.
JH: Jamie Loftus (16th Minute of Fame) and Karina Longworth (You Must Remember This) are my twin heroes. Each is distinctly talented, so I don’t mean to lump them together. But their long form, multi-episode podcast essays on movies, culture, and Cathy are usually the best books I read in any year. In another (a la) mode, Jesse introduced me to the Doughboys almost a decade ago: two guys and a guest discussing fast food and chain restaurants. I confess listening to that show (and going on it from time to time to eat terrible food) has become a dangerous addiction.
What’s a show you love that not enough people know about?
JT: I just went on a show called Walkin About with Allan McLeod. It’s basically a walking podcast. Allan goes on long walks with celebrity guests - mostly comedy people - and chats about the places they go and their relationship with walking. Allan’s slow-talking drawl is sort of in between a parody of Rick Steves-style travel content and actual, passionate Rick Steves-style travel content. And I love hearing the sounds of the places the guests are walking. It’s funny and relaxing, and I always learn something and leave inspired to use my body.
JH: ELECTION PROFIT MAKERS with David Rees and Jon Kimball. They’re two childhood friends from North Carolina who started out talking about political prediction markets, but mostly now talk about childhood favorite songs, the top 10 city skylines of the world, the geographic quirks of the Carolinian piedmont, Corma McCarthy, and birdsong. Full disclosure, I’m friends with both of these old friends, and I co-created an animated show called DICKTOWN on Hulu with David. But if you listen to them, they will be your friends too.
Why do you keep making Judge John Hodgman after all these years?
JT: Why does the bank keep asking for mortgage payments after all these years?
(In all sincerity: doing the show is one of the greatest pleasures of my life. I love my friend John and that I get to see him every week even though he lives 3000 miles from me, and I love talking to all the odd sweethearts who come on our show.)
JH: JUSTICE DOES NOT SLEEP. But honestly, as Jesse says, it’s great to hang with my friend. And talking to strangers is just always fun, interesting, and enlightening for me. Each person carries with them a whole world of experience, and I get to know two new ones every week.
Thanks, you two!