Nate Sloan and Charlie Harding

Nate Sloan (musicologist) and Charlie Harding (songwriter) host the Vulture podcast Switched on Pop about the making and meaning of popular music. Follow Nate on Twitter here, Charlie on Twitter here, and Switched on Pop on Twitter here.

How did you get introduced to podcasting?
We started our show in 2014 during the beginning of this current wave in podcasting both because we love audio storytelling but also because we wanted to maintain a long distance musical friendship after we both left San Francisco. We bought cheap microphones and audio interfaces and leaned heavily on resources from Transom and Third Coast to build our skills.

There are so many music podcasts, but Switched On Pop sets itself apart, probably because of the mixture of knowledge and fun that you and Charlie bring. How do you describe it to people? Why is it different than most music shows?
We say that the show is about the making and meaning of popular music because podcasting allows audiences to hear musical properties in pop that are harder to discern in written form. Hopefully the show gives people “a-ha” moments about their favorite songs. To keep it both entertaining and engaging, each episode is produced in isolation from each other, so that a highly researched outline is presented as a true extemporaneous conversation between two music nerds. 

The Switched on Pop book was beautiful. Congrats! I think a lot of shows are struggling with how to go from pod to book. How did you manage to do this? Why was it important to have a book? Do you think most shows could make a book, or is this specific to your content?
Julia Conrad, a gifted writer who had been working for our literary agent Sarah Lazin, cold emailed us about the idea. It took us more than two years to conceptualize around a sort of general audience music 101 book that approaches core musical concepts paired with a single contemporary pop song — a more comprehensive and educational take on the show. The biggest challenge was highlighting musical examples using almost no sheet music, but we had the good fortune to partner with the great illustrator Iris Gottlieb who brought these musical examples to life. 

Do you find that people who don't even like the show are interested in the book?
All the time. While there is definitely some audience overlap, we particularly find many educators using the book in the classroom, which is honestly the highest praise. 

Was there an episode that really resonated with people that kind of surprised you?
We’re always trying to balance covering new releases with a passion for music history, and we find again and again that our more evergreen throwback pieces are outsized hits: “How Bizarre,” “All Star,” “Dancing In The Streets,” “Rosie,” “The Sunscreen Song” and even our analysis of Beethoven’s 5th have all resonated. 

How is an episode born? Do you and Charlie sit down and brainstorm a bunch of ideas? Are there any ideas of episodes you'd love to do but haven't quite figured out how to make them work yet?
Each week our team comes together to pitch ideas, mostly drawn from what they’ve been listening to. We have a 50 episode backlog of wish-list ideas—many of which come from our brilliant listeners. We love doing more reported narrative work, and try to squeeze in these more ambitious pieces as frequently as possible. 

Which episode was the most fun to make?
The first one and the most recent one. The first one because we had no idea what we were doing. The most recent episode because every week we get to ask new musical questions that excite us… and we kind of know what we’re doing now. 

What’s something listeners don’t understand about podcasts and what goes into making them?
We do a fair amount of musical scoring for the show, as does our engineer Brandon McFarland who we say “DJs” the podcast because of his exceptional use of creative tools. 

What do you hope the show does for people?
Our greatest desire is that people listen more openly to all music and think about its meaning and purpose outside of their own taste.

Why are you the perfect hosts for this show?
We balance each other nicely because we bring contrasting skills. Nate’s a musicologist and exceptional Jazz pianist with a broad repertoire across all of popular music. Charlie specializes in contemporary production and sound design. Our ears sort of meet in the middle. 

What have you learned about music making the show?
The category “bad music” is grossly overused.

If you were going to create another podcast, don’t worry about the logistics or whether or not anyone would like it, what would it be?
Charlie wants to make a mockumentary about the self-help industry. Nate would like to do a mini series on the Irish tin whistle.

Women in podcasting are constantly being criticized for their voices. What is your relationship with yours? How would you describe your voice?
The same criticisms happen in pop music and it drives us mad! First of all, we try to feature a lot of voices that are not our own. Some people say we sound alike but the EQ curves say otherwise — Nate’s voice is much bassier. We both use vocal fry — as does pretty much every pop singer.

Do you think there are any rules all podcasters should adhere to?
Follow the rules of good audio storytelling and engineering and then break whichever rules you want. And don’t chew gum?

Should podcasters read their Apple Podcast reviews?
All online reviews suffer from the 5 star / 1 star problem. While we really love seeing praise from our listeners, and it does help us focus on what works well on the show, it is very uncommon to receive useful critical feedback from reviews. Better to consult with people who make great work and get targeted feedback.

Can you shout out another music podcast that you love?
We love Song Exploder, Hit Parade, Dissect, NYTimes Popcast, Mogul, Lost Notes, Punch Up The Jam, Dolly Parton’s America, Broken Record, Sound Opinions, oh and definitely Off Book it is a long-form improvised musical that is the most fun.

Are there too many podcasts?
Of course not. There are so many stories that need to be told from so many perspectives. The podcast format still feels young and there is so much room for further experimentation on form and subject matter. We’re in the Hotmail era of podcasts.

How did you go from zero to Vulture?
We gradually built our show over the last 6 years. The show first distributed via a Wordpress RSS feed that Charlie built. We partnered with Acast and then Panoply in our early days before getting picked up by Vox.com (their award winning YouTube music series “Earworm” by Estelle Caswell had been an inspiration). Now we’re migrating to Vulture, Vox.com’s sibling publication where we will get to collaborate with many of their outstanding music journalists. It is a dream collab because we both love Vulture’s culture writing.

What is the #1 way to increase your download numbers?
#1 Create reliably strong material on a consistent basis while not getting too stuck to a formula. #2 create tentpole moments with deeply reported pieces and mini-series that take additional effort over #1. Then again some of our personal favorite pieces we least expect to find an audience surprise us. But that’s why consistency matters.

Thanks, guys!