Sean Malin
Courtesy of Hollie Brown / Chronicle Books
Sean Malin is the author of The Podcast Pantheon: 101 Podcasts That Changed How We Listen–From WTF to Serial and the columnist behind New York Magazine’s “Start Here”, a monthly deep dive into the world’s funniest podcasts. As a culture critic, he’s covered such far-ranging topics as the collapse of film festival culture, television archiving, “Divorce Cameo,” and all-you-can-eat sushi in print and on camera over the last two decades. He is a regular contributor to the New York Times and Eater as well as a very game guest on many podcasts.
Tell us about The Podcast Pantheon in 10 words or less.
The world’s first-ever comprehensive master canon for podcasts.
I first discovered you via your writing for Vulture. What do you try to do when you write? Give people a 101 of what’s out there, tell them a story, challenge them to listen to something off-beat, cover the stuff that they should know is trending (whatever that word means these days,) critique, get attention to something that needs it, write something well…???
I will never be the most talented, intelligent, or connected culture critic out there - that role is reserved for the Morrises, Coateses, and Nussbaums of the world - so I’ve committed my career to paying attention to subjects that don’t get enough of it. My taste is very personal, and I try to make everything I cover (and the way I cover it, whether that’s in my written, on-camera, or audio work) an expression of that taste. Sometimes that means just taking an off-beat “angle” to a trending topic, as when I wrote about the actual process that episodes of television undergo when they get “pulled” from the air/streaming, or when I reported about a massive group of self-proclaimed “Foodies” that had exploded in my old hometown on the edge of the Angeles National Forest, Santa Clarita (of Santa Clarita Diet). Thankfully, my editors are Vulture thrive on this approach because it’s what audiences want: intimate, personal approaches to large-scale cultural topics.
If you dislike something, especially if it’s popular / getting attention, what do you do? / What should we all do? Write about it, ignore it, gossip about it to everyone in the industry?
Gossiping with industry pals is a huge part of dealing with envy, resentment, or disgust at something unworthy becoming popular, or stealing resources from something more worthy! I included Normal Gossip in my book for exactly that reason. I do believe in practicing deep empathy for anyone who has put art out in the world, and trying to understand that art with the most sincere of intentions before lashing out. Also, I don’t believe snark is ever the right approach to commenting on something. And lastly, I don’t advise burning bridges. None of that counts, however, when the thing that’s popular or getting attention is careless, thoughtless, harmful, or ugly trash. Then it should be publicly disavowed with a straight spine and a loud voice.
What’s your recipe for a good review and how is that different from the snippets you included in the book for each show? What is the structure of the snippets?
The chapter-sized snippets in The Podcast Pantheon - one for each podcast, or 101 chapters altogether - are reported pieces featuring exclusive interviews with all of the podcasters in the book. I spoke to 140 podcast hosts, guests, producers, engineers, and executives for the book, so it’s absolutely stuffed with anecdotes, advice, and memories you wouldn’t normally expect in a review. Normally, I wouldn’t conduct interviews or report for a review (though I will sometimes use reference sources for quotes or comparisons with other media). A good review must be honest to the writer’s taste, must be respectful of the reader’s time (not necessarily short, but not overlong), and must be as tight in its writing as possible - that is, no typos, grammatical issues, or unusual syntax/formatting, as those things bump readers and make it hard to get their attention back.
What do all the shows included have in common?
The podcasts in the book represent a diverse array of approaches, formats, and backgrounds, but share the following:
Each can be downloaded as an MP3 or streamed on an audio-streaming service.
Each is produced and hosted in English. I don’t have a deep enough fluency in any language to grasp the nuances of shows made for non-English-speaking audiences, unfortunately, so I had to rely on what I can understand.
Each podcast features people speaking. None are just composed of music or sounds. That may sound obvious, but there are many podcasts out there that don’t feature human voices.
How does one convert non-podcast listeners to listeners?
A key concern for so many audio-makers! That’s really what this book is about. It’s all about educating an ignorant public, because there are many shows out there for every single type of taste, schedule, personality type, class. Me
How do you discover shows to listen to?
I read about them and the podcast world constantly in Vulture, Business, Paste, AV Club, New Yorker, NY Times, and other culture publications. I listen to the advertisements and credits in episodes of shows I like as often as possible. I search under different genres on Apple Podcasts, Amazon, Spotify, and Patreon. And I follow my favorite podcasters on social media to hear what they’re working on next.
When you were considering what to include, how new was too new for consideration?
The rule for inclusion was that each podcast either had to have a minimum of 20 released episodes, or had to have completed producing any episodes (as in the case of miniseries like S-Town or Mystery Show). That meant that any series that had released fewer than 20 episodes was excluded from consideration altogether but was still going.
How did you think about the shows that should probably be in there but weren't favorites of yours?
While I respect and enjoy every show in the book, not all of them are personal favorites. For example, I recognize the brilliance of Story Pirates because I’ve seen how it inspires, excites, and instructs children around the globe. But as an adult without children, I don’t listen to the show for personal pleasure. That said, because I pitched and sold the book as an extension of my work and taste as a culture critic, I only had to include shows that I believed in. Nothing in the book was dictated to me or forced down my throat by outside sources.
How did you pick the “Sean Pick” in the book, or the one episode you think people should listen to?
"Sean's Picks" are secretly the most personal, least journalistic aspects of the book. I intentionally don't explain exactly what they are so that readers can decide for themselves why I chose certain episodes, especially in cases like this where it's confusing or random or even annoying. There's a bit of a game to it.
The Time list was the most influential and the best, wasn’t it? Isn’t that often a contradiction?
Indeed, especially in podcasting. And I think that particular list - which in my opinion was both appropriately criticized on social media for offering a generalized, shallow, and impersonal taste in podcasts AND unfairly knocked by readers who enjoy piling onto journalists and culture writers that don’t share their tastes - is an expression of those contradictions. So many of the so-termed “innovative, influential, and informative listens” on Time’s list are second- or third-generation ideas filtered for a more recent, mainstream audience; not influential themselves, but results of other podcasts’ influence. I can also think of a few for which “informative” is an inappropriate description. Not going to disrespect them publicly here, but feel free to find me after a book event and we can talk trash.
What’s the weirdest show that made the list?
The Time list or in my book? In my book, This is Branchburg is kooky comedy, but Love + Radio is probably the most eclectic or unusual in terms of production. I haven’t heard everything on the Time list, but we share a love for Welcome to Night Vale, which is enchanting for a very particular kind of human being.
What’s the best show that didn't make the list?
I can only speak to this for the podcasts in my book. There are many equally exceptional shows that never made it into the book for a variety of reasons, but the most painful was probably Erica Heilman’s Rumble Strip. I didn’t know the show when my work started on The Podcast Pantheon, and by the time it was recommended to me by Vanessa Lowe, the creator and host of Nocturne, the book was already in the design stages and the podcasts in it set. Then I had a chance to listen and realized I’d been ignorant to the existence of a truly important work of art. I’m sure there are many more out there, but if I get the chance to write a second edition of the book, Rumble Strip is a must.
Shout out someone in audio who is doing great work for the industry.
My old employer, Tania Ketenjian, has been the most vocal proponent for audio in my life. I worked with Tania and her husband, Philip, at their The [Un]Observed Radio Magazine while I was in college, and learned through them to revere and study the work of audio artists with the same conscientious focus as I was then applying to cinema. It was life-changing and Tania is thanked in my book because it wouldn’t exist without her influence. They now run Sound Made Public, which helps to bring a variety of audio experiences from sound installations to podcast series to one-time events, to life and to the public.
When you’re done listening for work, which shows do you listen to?
I have very few stable routines when it comes to my listening habits because I prefer exploring, but I rarely miss an episode of Comedy Bang! Bang!, WTF with Marc Maron, Hollywood Handbook, The Best Show with Tom Scharpling, or Bullseye! with Jesse Thorn.
If you were going to make a podcast, don’t worry about whether or not people would like it or ANY logistics (time and space don’t have to exist!) what would it be? Your budget is $1M.
Two ideas here.
I’d love to make a treasure-hunting podcast which can only be accessed and disseminated for download by USB drives hidden around the planet, like Geocaches. Each episode offers the next clue to the next clue to the next, culminating in the discovery of a treasure after 10 episodes. Once it’s discovered, the podcast and an after show about how the person who discovered it can be made public in season-long installments.
The other idea - and this is truly following the “time and space don’t exist” model - would be a film podcast in the vein of The Flop House or Black Men Can’t Jump [in Hollywood] centered exclusively on experimental, underground, and avant-garde film. Every episode would include an interview with a filmmaker followed by a discussion on that filmmaker’s work or one particular film, perhaps, with a fellow critic or guest. It pains me how little people understand about this world despite how often experimental film bleeds back into and informs mainstream cinema, and the goal of this podcast would attempt to draw a general public to that work.
Thank you, Sean!