Gabe Dunn & River Butcher

Gabe Dunn (he/they) is a writer, podcaster, YouTuber, actor, and filmmaker. River Butcher (he/him) is a stand up comic, actor, writer, producer and podcaster and baseball fan. Together they host The Knew Guys, a podcast about masculinity from the trans-guy lens. On each episode, they interview a guest about their relationship to gender, and explore relevant topics and events in the LGBTQ (usually the trans and/or transmasc) community. Follow Gabe on Instagram here. Follow River on Twitter here and Instagram here.

Describe The Knew Guys in 10 words or less.
Gabe: A show about gender for everyone by two trans guys.

River: A show about becoming yourself with two very different trans guys.

What does the name mean to you?
Gabe:  It means something different to River, but for me it means that we are new to being guys, but not in a way that warranted actually using the word “new” so “knew” became a cheeky way to say “we’re trying to know more about ourselves and the world” and hopefully after listening you will also know some (k)new parts of yourself and know more about the people around you who might be different from you.

River: So this name came to me because I first thought of “The New Guys” which I think is a pretty obvious title for a show with two trans guy hosts but then for me the “Knew” was a quick fix to make it different, because for me, I always KNEW I was something different than what people were telling me. And also, it’s something that we ask each other in the queer experience (not just trans) when we first meet each other or go on dates, “When did you know (you were queer/gay/trans/bi/etc)?” So it’s like, very much this doorway word for me to experience and understanding. Despite being a past tense word, I think the pun or wordplay of it also sounding like “new” keeps the experience expansive and not static.

What is your relationship like? What do you each bring to the table?
Gabe: I’ve always seen River as a queer role model and a big brother figure, even before we both transitioned. And then it was nice to see our timelines come together in this even bigger way. I’d worked with him before and he’d even directed me in his show (where I was very intimidated, through no fault of his own)! So when River told me about his idea for the show and asked me to co-host it with him, I was so honored and excited because he wanted to hang out with me literally at all. (He might hate that I said that!) So I think it makes the show great because my energy is very little brother and River’s is very big brother. He is zen and I am manic. We’re covering all the trans guy bases.

River: What Gabe said is very sweet and I have always respected Gabe’s sort of, portfolio of work, that I feel is very different from mine, so I thought we could have conversations that some folks might think would be us agreeing all the time because of how we present to the world, but in reality we are very different in many ways (that continue to unfold). I did not realize just how able Gabe is to get production done in podcasting, so I am very grateful for his talents and abilities there! He has really gotten the show running which, as someone who has been working primarily on the road from only a phone, I appreciate tremendously.

Who is the podcast for, and what do you want people to get out of it?
River: Ultimately it’s for anyone. I have heard so much good feedback from many people who are not trans and not queer, which is always fun, because they need fun, queer things too! And I also think that indirect experience with each other can help us evolve, grow, and accept and understand each other better. I want people to open their minds about what it can be to be trans, queer, etc., and to understand that there is no monolith of queerness or transness, and we actually represent the opposite of that. And you don’t have to fully understand or grasp anything to grow and learn. That is how I began to accept myself as trans; I didn’t have to know everything about myself right away to take my first steps.

What’s your goal for the show (something about community, making Knew Guys action figures or a theme park?) and how can we help you get there?
River: My goal is that people listen and enjoy it. I would love to do it in a studio with video, so our amazing producer Logan Castrodale can have a sweet setup as well.

What’s a story or something about you you are eager to share on The Knew Guys that you haven’t been able to share in your other work?
Gabe: I don’t get the opportunity to talk about trans stuff with another trans guy basically ever. Especially to be able to have these conversations in a public forum for other people, both trans and cis, to consume and learn from is so exciting to me. And River and I talked about how trans guys aren’t represented in the media, and especially not two with two very different experiences and backgrounds and lifestyles. I’m eager to discuss what I’m actively going through (because it’s all happening so right now and in the moment) like testosterone side effects, social transition, and name change paperwork, all of that – with a trans co-host and for a trans audience.

Pretend you were going to make another podcast. Your budget is $1M and you don’t have to worry about the logistics or if anyone would like it. What would it be?
River: River talks for an hour once a week about what he likes, doesn’t like, and how he feels. 

Who do you most want to interview? 
River: Well, we had my dear friend Daniel Sea as a first guest and that was a dream, so I’m pretty open to anyone at this point. I would love to interview trans people in Akron Ohio.

What’s a podcast you love that everyone already knows about?
Gabe: You’re Wrong About, with the new episodes hosted by Sarah Marshall by herself have been so lovely and empathetic and full of wisdom. Check those out!

River: I second Gabe. Sarah’s podcast is honestly the only one I listen to. Sorry, other podcasts.

Are there too many podcasts?
Gabe: Not at all! I think there’s a lot from one demographic but the point of the medium is there’s a lower barrier to entry and so more and more marginalized people can make shows for groups that don’t have shows for them. There are too many of maybe a specific kind of podcast, but for queer people? Make hundreds more! Please!

River: I agree with Gabe however I will say: yes, there are too many corporate podcasts. Podcasting has basically become television, and it’s getting harder to make indy podcasts. So make more indy podcasts!

What’s your favorite thing about making a podcast?
River: I’ve literally set up my whole life to talk for a living, so I love to talk. That’s my favorite part.

What’s the worst?
River: Scheduling. I have a very difficult time with it, especially while traveling. I appreciate Gabe and Logan’s patience immensely.

Hot take:
River: Trans people are both incredibly magical/spiritual and boring as anyone else. 

Self-care ritual:
River: I spend at least 20-40 minutes of quiet time in the morning, every morning - writing, meditating, reading, contemplating, doing yoga/stretching. I reach out to someone to see how they’re doing. I have a gratitude practice. I also go to the gym most days for at least an hour to move heavy things around and sweat.. I try to drink 32 oz of water and get 7 hours of sleep. If you showed this list to me 6 years ago I would either be shocked, or completely cynical, but likely both.

Thanks, Gabe and River!