Maurice Cherry

Maurice Cherry is the host of Revision Path, an award-winning podcast which is the first podcast to be added to the permanent collection of the Smithsonian’s National Museum of African American History and Culture. Follow him on Twitter here.

How did you get introduced to the audio space?
I first was introduced to the audio space -- podcasting, I guess if you would call it that -- sometime in the mid 2000s. I was a very active blogger during that time, and I had heard about creating and sharing short audio on an old social site called Odeo, which was a precursor to Twitter. I got an invite to Odeo, but I didn't actually have a way to record anything, so I went down to my local CVS and bought a $10 cheap GE microphone and used that.

After cutting my teeth with podcasting on Odeo, I started my first real podcast on my then blog which had about 50 or so episodes. That podcast was me just talking about life and talking about, you know, being a post-grad and all that sort of stuff. From there, I learned more about the Atlanta podcasting space, got to attend and participate in a few Podcamps, and also connected with the Georgia Podcast Network. This was my first foray into podcasting and the community around it.

Your show has won so many awards, and In July 2019, the Smithsonian’s National Museum of African American History and Culture acquired a selection of Revision Path’s episodes for inclusion in their permanent archives. How did this happen and how did it change things for you?
This is a great question.

Harvard’s Graduate School of Design began hosting a conference in 2015 called Black In Design. I attended the conference, and this was the year before the Museum opened to the public. There were curators from the Smithsonian there, and they were making an active request to attendees about donating artifacts. I told one of them about the podcast and got her card. I pitched the show to her, but Revision Path only had about 100 episodes or so -- not enough to really merit any sort of historical examination. Fast-forward to the second year for the Black in Design conference in 2017. That same curator was there, and I re-introduced myself and pitched the show to her again. By now, Revision Path just passed the 200 episode mark. She remembered me and the show, and promised she would follow up. 2018 rolls around, and she followed up with a list of episodes they were interested in acquiring from our archive. We went back and forth before agreeing on the final list, and then the Museum went through the process of obtaining museum rights from the guests I interviewed for those episodes. In 2019, the process was almost complete, but I also wanted to add our 300th episode with Hannah Beachler to the list of episodes. The museum complied, I signed the deed of gift, and after a review with the Smithsonian’s department of internal affairs, I was able to confidently and factually say that the podcast was the first to be included in the Smithsonian’s archives.

As far as how things changed for me? Well, I'll be completely honest and transparent. I was working for a startup called Glitch at the time as the head of their media department, and the very next day after the Smithsonian announcement, I got demoted by the COO, removed from the team I built, and received what was quite possibly one of the worst professional dressing downs in my career. That took pretty much all of the joy out of the announcement, and I didn’t feel like I could celebrate the accomplishment properly because now I had to be worried about my job! (I don’t work for Glitch anymore. Thanks, pandemic layoffs.) I still don’t really feel like I’ve “celebrated” the accomplishment, even two years later.

Outside of that initial news announcement, a few other things have changed. It has gotten a bit more difficult to get guests on the show -- we get a lot of people who want to come on the show who don’t fit the show’s audience or demographic, which is pretty annoying. It has not helped in terms of sponsors or donations either. We also have people who I invite on the show who turn it down because it has reached this level of acclaim. (I don’t quite understand that.) I’ve had potential sponsors tell me that because the show is in the Museum, it shouldn’t need financial support to keep things going and growing. I don’t know if they think donating to a museum comes with some kind of financial windfall, but it doesn’t! I’m not even sure if it registers in the podcasting community as a whole. I definitely got an icy reception from industry folks at the last conference I attended back in February 2020 (Podcast Movement Evolutions in Los Angeles).

Why is Revision Path so important?
Personally, I love that Revision Path is a platform for Black designers, developers, digital creatives, artists, etc. to really tell their own story in their own words. I really try to stay out of the way in most interviews and just let the guest talk, and I do my part to guide them towards a particular takeaway or point of view that they want the listener to have after the interview.

From what I’ve heard from listeners, they feel that Revision Path is important because it helps set a standard and an example to let others know that there are Black people doing this kind of work, they are successful, and they are thriving. I know some educators that use the podcast as a teaching tool in their courses, so it’s great that the next generation of designers and creatives get a chance to be inspired by these amazing guests.

What’s the secret to a great interview?
Active listening.

A great interview, for me, should be a bit like a dance with someone. There’s a push and a pull; a tension and a release -- that sort of back and forth lets both the guest and the listener know that you’re really engaged in creating a connection. I take notes on my iPad Pro while interviewing a guest, and I’ll use my notes there to come up with more questions on the fly as the conversation goes on. Once you’ve really created that connection with the guest, they can open up more, feel relaxed, and give some really great insights.

Every guest is the expert of their own experience, but they may not feel that way going into the interview. As the host, it’s my job to create the space to allow them to step into that expertise and really sound like a true professional.

If people are new to your show, where should they start?
Anywhere but the beginning! That’s not to say the beginning of the podcast is bad, but I didn’t have the best audio equipment, and I certainly didn't have the best interview style. So they’re a bit crunchy and rough, but if you can get past that, you should be fine.

If there’s a Black designer whom you’re already familiar with, search our archives and see if they’re there, and use that interview as your entry point to the shoe. I mean, we have over 400 episodes and they’re all personal profiles! I can’t know what a new listener may want to hear, but I can guarantee they’ll have a greater connection with the show if they start with a recognizable name or face.

What has helped in making your show grow?
Y’know, the fact that we have been around now for nearly nine years is a real testament to the community behind the show. I really think that’s been the secret to helping the show grow. I focus on the community and the listeners we have, and then they help spread the word to others.

On its face, Revision Path is not a podcast that gets a lot of attention. We’re not located in NYC or Los Angeles or Silicon Valley. We only have Black guests. The focus of the show isn’t about current events, pop culture, entertainment news, or politics. Mainstream media, Black media, and trade publications don’t know what to do with a show like Revision Path, so we don’t exactly get a lot of attention from those outlets. And many people will turn away from the show for any of these reasons! On the other hand, those same reasons will draw people to the show. So I suppose it evens out.

You’ve been podcasting for centuries in podcast-time. Have you experienced burnout and how did you overcome it, if so?
I love podcasting and getting on the mic, and I’ve been very fortunate not to feel burned out by the work. This is because for every show that I’ve created, I come in with a system for pre-production, recording, and post-production.

It’s largely the same system for every show, but what the system allows me to do is structure periodic breaks -- maybe like 2 or 3 weeks at a time -- where I can take a break from the show while it still publishes on its own. I have a fantastic editor (RJ) and a fantastic social media person (Robert) that really help keep the engine running. I record all my interviews weeks in advance, and everything from social media asset creation to show notes to transcripts are all worked into the system. This has allowed me to publish week after week, year after year, without getting burned out.

What’s your favorite thing about podcasting?
My favorite thing about podcasting is that it allows anyone to have a voice and to build a platform based on their own unique experiences. Podcasting reminds me of the early days of blogging and the Web -- everyone had their own space, did their own thing, and no one was telling you what to do or what to talk about. It’s a blank slate for whatever you want to put out there in the world, especially in this current age.

What’s your least favorite thing about podcasting?
There’s still a HUGE chasm between indie podcasters and “professional” podcasters when it comes to discovery and reach. (When I say “professional”, I mean celebrities and other known public figures who enter the space with large networks, media contacts, etc.) There are so many great shows out there flying under the radar of the media because they’re too busy focusing on the next show from that former 90’s sitcom actor or current Instagram comedian. And quite frankly, the current circuit of podcast empowerment conferences -- because really, that’s what they are -- do nothing to help buck this trend either.

I know so many great shows that have never been able to get that traction or be available for opportunities for growth because the focus on podcast discovery is solely on shows from celebrities and known public figures. It really sucks.

What’s your favorite podcast marketing tip?
Spend your time cultivating the audience you have. Build and strengthen those relationships, and let that audience help market your show.

What do you hope Revision Path does for people?
I hope Revision Path changes the conversation and elevates the culture of Black design to a point where the mainstream design community doesn’t just recognize us during Black History Month. We’re out here. We are part of the fabric of this community. We generate amazing work. And you should want to know who we are. Don’t embarrass yourself by not knowing any Black designers or creative talent.

What has Revision Path taught you about yourself? The world?
Revision Path has taught me that everyone has a story, and that everyone wants to be validated for their experiences. The people I interview are in this field because they have a calling and a passion. What Revision Path does is help validate that on both a personal and professional level, while also establishing their place in a continuum of Black designers and creatives throughout the industry throughout history.

Go on and tell us about the white people who pitch themselves to your show.
Surprisingly, not many white people pitch themselves to be on the show now that news is out that we’re part of the archives of the National Museum of African-American History and Culture. Funny how that works as a signifier! LOL! 

The peak of white people wanting to colonize Revision Path happened around 2014-2015 as the show started to gain momentum. It’s interesting, because I would pitch Revision Path to a lot of design podcasts that had all white guests (and all white hosts), and would get told that they don’t handle race. But me as a Black man doing an interview podcast with all Black guests makes me racist? Make that make sense.

I’m just going to knock on wood and count my blessings that I don’t get any of that kind of attention anymore.

What shows do you love?
Here are the shows I currently have in regular rotation: Jill Scott Presents: J.ill the Podcast, Twenty Thousand Hertz, Morgan Harper Nichols, The Read, Ratchet and Respectable, and the HBR IdeaCast. I’ll often rotate new shows in and out of my base roster on a regular basis. I don’t listen to a ton of new shows, but I’m really drawn to strong narrative shows that go in on a specific topic I’m interested in, like business development or sound design. Oh, and I really like short documentary style pods, like Anime in America from Crunchyroll or Freaknik: Discourse on a Paradise Lost. It varies though! I listen to way more music than podcasts.

If you were going to start another podcast, don’t worry about the logistics or whether or not anyone would listen to it, what would it be?
I would love to do a seasonal podcast where I talk to BIPOC influencers across the Internet and social media. YouTubers, TikTokers, other podcasts, etc.

The reason I want to do this show is because I’ve been thinking about how content on the Internet these days is like water, and for many of these influencers, it can be a struggle to make that content fill the shape of a different “container”, so to speak. So for example, someone big on TikTok may struggle on YouTube -- they’re both video, but there’s different platform expectations, different social cues and mores from audience members, etc. And I see how that can take a toll on them, especially because other media outlets aren’t really talking to them, but they are profiting off of their work and their reach. I’d love to provide these creators a space to really tell the world who they are in their own words.

How do you make your guests feel comfortable?
I make it my goal to ensure the guest knows that my interview with them is the highlight of my day. Before every interview, we kinda shoot the breeze for about 5-10 minutes just to loosen them up and let them know this is going to be a casual conversation. No guest wants to feel rushed or boxed in, so I just keep things light and breezy and allow them the space to open up.

I mean, I think I’ve developed some amount of natural charisma over the years, and I use that to be a bit self-effacing and vulnerable with guests to let them know that this is new territory for me too, even if it’s someone I know!

What’s your relationship with your voice and how would you describe it?
I love my voice. I really do. I’ve never been one of these “oh, I hate how my voice sounds” people -- I’ve always embraced how it sounds. It’s funny, because when I was younger, had a much thicker Southern accent and a stutter, I hated my voice. Speech therapy as a kid helped get me together, but also, my time as a musician helped develop my voice also. (I’m not a singer though -- only in the shower.)

I’ve heard thousands of hours of my own voice over the years, so I know how to control the timbre and pitch and tempo and resonance to achieve a certain gravity that I want to come across to either the guest or the audience. I’ve really learned to harness those affectations over the years, so I have a pretty good relationship with my voice. I’d love to do voice acting one day!

How has Revision Path changed since it began?
Honestly, not a lot has changed with Revision Path since those early days. I think I’ve gotten better as an interviewer -- thankfully -- but I still feel as though the show occupies this interesting liminal space that allows us to do whatever the fuck we want to do.

I don’t say that in some kind of braggadocious way, but moreso in a way that means we sit at the intersection -- and in some cases, the blind spot -- of the very people and communities that the podcast highlights. I mean, we have some presence in the design community, but when people think of design podcasts, Revision Path isn’t coming up in those conversations. As a host, I’m not getting invited to podcast conferences to share my expertise or to even do a live show. Revision Path isn’t in the conversation when people ask about Black podcasts either, despite how long we’ve been around and the honors we’ve gotten.

I still have to hunt down pretty much every opportunity I get because the show just isn’t there yet. Where is there? I don’t know. But we ain’t there yet.

Thanks, Maurice!