Mark Pagán
Mark Pagán is the host of Other Men Need Help. Follow Other Men Need Help on Twitter here. Follow Mark on Twitter here.
Kindly introduce yourself and tell us what you do!
I’m Mark Pagán, host and creator of Other Men Need Help. It’s a podcast that playfully looks at how men present themselves to the world, and pulls back the curtain to reveal what's behind the performance. It’s a narrative show, very autobiographical, very transparent, and very silly at times. We’re now in our third season which is looking at men and their friendships. I work a few other shows and also currently take care of a pigeon named Valentina.
How did you get introduced to the audio space? Have you always loved it, before podcasting?
It seems inevitable at this point but I was in film, social work, comedy before this. I didn’t grow up with public radio but I loved FM DJs and late night request shows. I was really jazzed on audio sketches in comedy albums (Monty Python’s The Final Rip-Off, Harry Shearer’s It Must Have Been Something I Said come to mind) and hip hop LPs in the 90s. In terms of audio, eventually this led to becoming a so-so DJ, but was a good storyteller. I sold my turntables and got my first audio kit and it’s been a lot of male confessional tales since then.
Which episode was the most fun to make?
I Looked Up your Ex. It’s the second episode of the show. OMNH was brand new, with so much room to try whatever we wanted. Sure, I cringe at some of the production elements of it, but it feels the most distilled version of the kind of show I wanted to hear from another man - “my partner’s ex is a tremendously gorgeous painter and here are all the ridiculous ways it’s making me feel -- anyone with me??”. It’s the one that makes me smile the most. For this season, I've had the most fun with the third episode (debuting on August 13), I Miss You. Period. That one feels the most like I'm talking to my twelve year old self.
What’s more important, story or sound?
I want to scream “story” and yes, I mostly think that. But the ear is so unforgiving. You can get away with materials that appear more raw in other mediums – I can watch a 90 minute movie compiled from cell phone footage or YouTube clips. But bad sound actually makes people hostile (I'm thinking of “well, I can’t hear what he’s saying” commentary overheard at weddings and graduations). So maybe story is primary, but also using story to direct or frame the sound experience for the listener.
Are there too many podcasts?
I don’t think so. I do find it overwhelming as a digital format; not tactile in the same way as physical media. We can't grasp the gems that exist in RSS feeds all over the world. I would love to see podcasting fetishized in the same way physical media has been by collectors and anthropologists. How many one-time authors and regional audio recordings were created in the last 100 years? We don’t seem to say “too many books”, “too many records”. Instead we have communities who showcase deep knowledge, love, and awe over a limited press pulp paperback from the 50s or a self-funded Northern Soul 45 recorded in Manchester by a group of teens in the 60s. Sure it only sold a few dozen copies, but it’s beloved and shared as a divine object by multi-generational fans. We offer so much love for the volume and obscurity that exists in physical media. I’d love to see that with the plethora of pods we have! Can you imagine?! “This self-funded chatcast had a total of 55 listens but was recorded in so-and-so’s car in Nairobi off a Motorola. Only two episodes exist!” Who are the archivists doing this work?
What’s something listeners don’t understand about podcasts and what goes into making them?
Making podcasts is writing. SO MUCH WRITING. Ours is narrative in format so this is a given, but every format I’ve encountered requires writing. Also, people don't appreciate the time commitment to painstakingly remove little sound issues that hopefully no one ever registers. If there’s a hell for podcasters, all the mouth noise you spent your life removing during long late night editing sessions will be waiting for you.
Other Men Needs Help feels totally different than anything else out there. Where did you get the idea?
As a listener, I was finding one of three options when looking for conversations about gender or masculinity. One was the round table discussion with limited introspection or accountability from hosts. Second was the “I’m the asshole” proclamation that doesn’t really own actions, or indicate any reflection. And the other was what I call the “earnest open mic-er show”: someone just expressing feelings, getting very sentimental and heavy AND usually sharing a one-sided narrative. These three all have one thing in common: they're joyless.Our go to explanation for the show is “Sesame Street about men for adults”. You're getting to the heart of the matter, but doing so in a colorful, engaging way. In terms of style, I wondered what an animated series sounded like as a podcast? Internally, each season I say to the team, “ok we’re gonna try to make Bob’s Burgers as a podcast”. It’s kind of the goal! The goal being characters you relate to - people that are flawed, who will take responsibility, and ultimately share what they care about deep down - in bite-sized episodes with a resolution that’s tender and honest. In the midst of that, expect absurdity, ridiculous voices, and dope music.
If you were going to create another podcast, don’t worry about the logistics or whether or not anyone would like it, what would it be?
A musical about first and second generation boys trying to assimilate in homogenous U.S. towns through body hair removal and maintenance.
Women in podcasting are constantly being criticized for their voices. What is your relationship with yours? How would you describe your voice?
Oh I’m glad you asked that question. I’ve heard that from other podcasters (the criticism for their voices). And I do think a lot about gender and male-ness in audio when recording. Ultimately, what I’m saying could be patriarchal since frankly I’m still a man talking with the assumption that my voice carries weight where many of my peers are criticized just for their speaking voice. I exist in this world as a man, but I’ve felt unease in some male spaces and groups, so I am very intentional about dispelling that unease with a disarming voice. By talking intimately to people, I’m very intentional about trying to offer authenticity, but also a male voice like the ones that made me feel safe when I was younger. So I very explicitly replicate three voices that comforted me when I was a boy. I alternate between copying my brother-in-law Gilberto’s Southwestern blanket of warm patter; John Travolta’s calm and charm as Jack Terry in Blow Out; or Donnie Simpson’s mellow confidence during his days as Video Soul host and WKYS DJ. Hopefully it comes off sounding like the most approachable version of myself.
Do you think there are any rules all podcasters should adhere to?
Whatever length you think your podcast should be, it needs to be shorter :)
What shows do you love?
It changes when we’re in production -- I can’t listen to most narrative shows until we wrap! Right now, it’s Switchblade Sisters, BBC 4’s Soul Music, Still Processing, Bag Ladiez, Heat Rocks, Imaginary Advice, Natal, Articles of Interest, Thirst Aid Kit. I’m a big Bullseye fan. Would love to talk with Jesse Thorn - he’s one of my faves.
Thanks, Mark!