Jack Rhysider

Jack Rhysider is the host and creator of the podcast Darknet Diaries, which gets about 400,000 downloads per episode. Before that he worked as a network security engineer, looking for threats in the network and securing the network.

Describe Darknet Diaries in ten words or less. 
True stories from the dark side of the Internet.

Why are you the perfect host for it?
In my opinion to make my show requires 3 key skills, audio journalism, storytelling, and understanding of cyber security. I come from a background in cyber security, and a love of great audio storytelling. To learn how to make the show I studied how the greats do what they do. Mostly by reading the book Out on the Wire. I also read books about audio journalism. From this starting point I began creating the show to hear what I wanted to hear. I made the show for myself first and foremost because I wanted to hear these stories told.

What’s the number one thing podcasters do wrong to market their podcasts?
Well, I see most podcasters do nothing in terms of marketing. Or put very little effort into their social media or online presence. They feel frozen and completely lost as to what to do to get their show out there and kind of assume if they just make more episodes it’ll somehow get picked up by a lot of people. It takes a lot of work and time to market a show, but it’s so worth it since it can change your life!

When you think about your numbers, which stats do you like to focus on?
The main one I look at is the number of downloads per episode. Sometimes podcast hosting providers release an average number of downloads per episode for the shows they host. So this has been a nice way to compare my show to the average. I look at lots of stats though. Number of emails I get, number of likes to my social media posts, number of Patreon subscribers, social media follower count, and number of subscribers in different apps like Castbox, Podcast Addict, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

Has there been a lot of things you’ve done to grow your show, or was there one big thing that stood out?
I liken it to riding a bicycle across the country. Lots of cycling and peddling. There isn’t one pedal that is the best, it’s a flywheel and once you get moving, it’s easier to keep it going. Word of mouth is by far the biggest draw though. If a listener loves the show, they’ll tell a friend, maybe 100 friends. Perhaps 50% of my listeners come from someone else telling them about it, not me. And if you know that, you can reverse engineer that. How do you get someone to share a podcast? Make something they want to talk about with others. So then what’s something you can say that people will want to talk about. And you also start thinking, ok are there parts of this episode that are not worth sharing, or where a listener isn’t going to want to talk about with others. If so, can we cut that part? The more great your show is, the more it spreads. The second biggest thing that helped with marketing is social media. You can’t just post your new episode and be done. You really got to be present, spark conversations, get deep with people, and be on there a lot for people to notice you. The more vocal you are on social media the more people follow you there, then the more people will tune in to the podcast.

What are the three greatest superpowers of a podcaster?
I wish I had super powers when I started! But I think podcasters have super powers when they have a following already before starting a podcast. Look at Conan O’Brian for example. He’s got a huge podcast. But he was a huge celebrity to start with. So duh, of course he can bring in a lot of people to listen. He’s on TV nightly. To tell his TV audience to listen, immediately results in hundreds of thousands of people listening to his podcast. You and I can’t do that. So we have to start from the ground up to build our audience. But if you have any kind of audience at all, consider it a minor superpower and use it to bring more listeners. If you have a blog, youtube channel, website, anything with traffic, tell them about your podcast!

Who is a podcaster you admire, who has really started from nothing and now has a real impact on the space?
A lot of people start podcasting to be like Joe Rogan or Joe has influenced them to start. I think this is a bad influence because what they hear today is already after Joe had a Hollywood career, and spent 13 years podcasting. When looking at role models, you should look at someone who started in the same place as you. Perhaps with no followers. I think a show which was very influential to me starting out was Smart Passive Income. Patt Flynn built it from being a nobody to becoming hugely influential and finding very innovative ways to monetize his podcast. I love seeing people start from nothing and make it big. That’s the path I want to follow!

How has your show changed over the years?
Since I was new to podcasting coming into this, I feel like I had to go through some newbie phases to perhaps find my stride. I tried on different voices to find my voice, I tried different storytelling styles to experiment with the delivery. All along the way I felt like the end results aren't exactly what I envisioned the show to be. At ep 45 (XBox Underground) is when I finally made an episode that felt like how I imagined the show to be. I spent about 6 months working on that episode though and had a tough time getting back to that quality. But at least I knew I had it in me and could keep trying to reach for that again.

Do promo swaps work?
Yeah for sure. If you can get other shows to mention your show it’s just like an ad on their show. I did quite a few promo swaps and highly recommend it. Of course there’s the immediate result of getting new listeners, but it’s always great to meet other podcasters and make friends in this business. I’ve found that whatever call to action people ask for, such as “go subscribe to this podcast” only about 1% of the listeners will do it. So it becomes a numbers game, the bigger the podcast you can get to mention you the more people will come over. 

Has anything worked that really surprised you?
I go to hacker conventions often. And every time I go I never bring enough stickers. The most I brought was 4,000, and I still ran out in a weekend. I simply can’t give enough stickers out to everyone at these places.

I was speaking at a conference once, and someone said ‘why would I do a promo swap and send someone to another show?’ How would you answer that question?
One of the biggest questions I get is “ok I finished all your episodes, any other podcasts like yours?” and so I ended up making a webpage on my site listing all the other podcasts I like or shows like mine. It is one of the most visited pages on my site. And people find it by googling “Shows like Darknet Diaries”. That’s the kind of relationship I want to have with my listeners. That even when they’re done with me, walking out the door, I’m STILL there for them, helping them find new loves. I want to provide maximum value to them. And if giving them a solid recommendation for another podcast makes their life better I want to do that.

How are you feeling about the podcast industry these days? Should people be optimistic?
Yes, I'm very optimistic. The water’s great, now’s a great time to jump in. There are a few big companies canceling shows they bought but didn’t know how to run properly. They just don’t know what they’re doing and shouldn’t be in the podcast business. And the number of shows they control is so small that it’s not much of an indicator for me other than that company doesn’t know what they’re doing. But I think the space is vibrant, popping, exciting, and still blooming. 

Is now a bad time to start a new podcast?
No. Now is a great time to start. And I don’t like answering the question “is my podcast idea good?” it’s never about the idea, but always about the way you execute it. It’s never about whether or not someone already makes a podcast about the same thing, or if there’s an audience for it. It’s always about how well you make it. And you can make a show about stuff I have no interest in, but if you’re mesmerizing, interesting, funny, or great in your own way. I’ll probably want to listen. For example, Car Talk was a hilarious show about cars, and I have no interest in cars, yet I’d tune in every week without fail. The best podcasts are the ones where the full character of the host shines through and we see their passion. And only you can be you. Nobody else can be you as well as you can. So you’re uniquely positioned to do this.

Are there too many podcasts?
No not even close. This is like asking if there’s too much music. Too many movies. Too many books. It sounds ridiculous to think, we’ve made enough music, we’re done. Or even think, ok we’ve done everything you can do in podcasts, there’s nothing more to talk about. Even that’s ridiculous. First we are addicted to new. We want the latest gossip, news, sports stories, music reviews, video game news, etc. And this stuff will never run dry. There’s always a need to talk about everything new going on in the world. And people's passions are niched down to be very narrow and deep now. Just think about all the new video games that come out in the next year. Where when someone gets addicted to playing it, and they just wanna know more about the game and its lore, or anything cool, they may have a burning need to listen to hundreds of hours of podcasts about that. I know I have. So someone is gonna have to make that for me when that game comes out in a few years that I get obsessed over.

But besides being addicted to new, we also love variety. And want more options for enjoying podcasts. Some people like slow speakers who simplify everything. Some people like fast talkers who get down in the weeds and get nerdy about stuff. Some people want to consume their news with comedy thrown in, others like non nonsense dry news. 

Thanks, Jack!