Dawnie Walton and Deesha Philyaw

Dawnie Walton (The Final Revival of Opal & Nev) and Deesha Philyaw (The Secret Lives of Church Ladies) are the co-hosts of Ursa Short Fiction. Follow Dawnie on Twitter here, Deesha on Twitter here, and Ursa on Twitter here.

How would you describe the show in 10 words or less?
Deesha: Ursa celebrates the best short fiction writers and their work.

What’s your background in storytelling?
Deesha: I started writing about 20 years ago as a stay-at-home mom in need of mental stimulation and a break. I went from writing about 30 minutes a day to taking classes and workshops and reading everything I could find about the craft of writing. I tried my hand at novels, but have yet to finish one. Prior to the 2020 release of Church Ladies, I was a freelance writer for about 15 years. My personal essays during that time typically covered parenting, race, gender, and culture. In my short fiction, I’ve been writing about dissatisfied women––dissatisfied Black, Southern women––in some form or fashion from the very beginning. I don’t have an MFA; I like to share this to encourage aspiring writers and as a reminder that there are many paths and shapes a writing career can take.

Dawnie: I’ve been writing stories all my life but was pretty practical as a young person, so instead of pursuing fiction like I always dreamed, I got a degree in journalism (a viable option at the time, the mid-’90s). I spent more than 20 years climbing the media ladder, starting with newspapers and ending up at magazines, and the irony is I spent very little of that time writing (I got on the editing track early on). Occasionally I took fiction workshops on the side, but never really tried to do anything with my writing. Then in 2013 I had some major upheaval in my personal life, and I started reevaluating all my choices. That’s the year I started writing Opal & Nev, and the year my new career began. 

What’s the history of your friendship?
Dawnie: In 2020, shortly after The Secret Lives of Church Ladies came out and before I’d had a chance to read it, I attended a Zoom event Deesha had with the wonderful Kiese Laymon for Greenlight Bookstore, because I’d just heard so many great things about this collection. And I think it was during that conversation I learned Deesha too was from Jacksonville. I got incredibly hype in the comments, haha, and afterward I DM’ed her on Twitter to say hello. Come to find out we’d even gone to the same high school, five years apart! For a while we tried to figure out who all might know each other in our families, and even though we never did piece that together, we had an instant familiarity, which only deepened when I devoured Church Ladies and recognized so much of my folks in her brilliant stories. So I was a fan first, and then I sent her a copy of my novel, which was still several months out from publication. She was so open and generous, giving me some career advice and putting the galley I sent her in a photo she took to promote an appearance on The Stacks, one of my favorite podcasts. It meant the world to me to have someone so talented, someone I admired so much from the literary community, give my work that kind of early boost. At some point we looped in Dantiel W. Moniz, author of Milk Blood Heat and another Jacksonville-reared writer, into our conversations, and the “Three D’s” finally met in person at the Miami Book Fair in November 2021. 

I’m rambling but let me just say that it is rare, as I get older, to meet people I click with in the way that I do with Deesha. We laugh our heads off, we support each other, and now we dream together for this new podcast.

Deesha: I don’t believe in coincidences. Three of the hottest books from the early 2020s all written by Black women from Jacksonville, Florida!? That’s extra special. And I said as much in an offhand comment to an L.A. Times reporter who was writing a profile of me. I mentioned that not one publication, including our hometown newspaper, had covered the story of us. Well, the reporter made my little observation the lede in the profile, and when it hit social media, suddenly our story was a hot topic. And I’m so thankful. I’m glad that my book’s journey will forever be associated with Dawnie’s and Dantiel’s. Our books brought us together, we forged a connection, and for Dawnie and me, Ursa is one of the ways our friendship has blossomed.

Were there any surprises in making the show?
Deesha: I’ve been surprised by how much fun we’re having, how much we laugh. Dawnie and I have a natural rapport, and I look forward to everytime we’re in the virtual studio together. This doesn’t feel like work!

Do you think not enough people read short stories? Why?
Deesha: I suspect it’s a chicken-or-the-egg type situation. “Short stories don’t sell,” is a common refrain from agents and publishers. Short story writers are often told to come back when they have a novel, either to accompany their short story collection for a two-book deal, or instead of their collection. Readers have told me that they never or rarely read short stories. But is that because publishers are more interested in publishing novels, so short stories aren’t on readers’ radars as much? Or do collections not sell because publishers don’t support the few they do publish, with marketing dollars? 

If it’s truly a matter of customer taste and demand, I wonder if short stories are less popular because in high school, we read novels almost exclusively. I don’t remember reading a short story collection in high school. A third of U.S. high school graduates never read a book, period, after high school. So maybe the other two-thirds stick to what they know, which is novels.

Dawnie: I agree that the lack of support for short stories from large publishers has an effect — fewer collections get out there, and so fewer people have knowledge of or access to them. But I also should say that many people ARE reading short fiction collections and don’t realize it because those books may be marketed as novels. The Twelve Tribes of Hattie, Olive Kitteridge, Homegoing, A Visit From the Goon Squad — all bestsellers, and all technically books of linked short stories. 

If you were going to make another podcast—don’t worry about the logistics or if anyone would like it—what would it be?
Dawnie: Shows that revise history are my favorites. Mine would squint back at movies, TV shows, and music videos from the ‘80s and ‘90s (a.k.a. my coming-of-age years), and thoroughly dissect them with a sharp Gen-Z cohost. There’s definitely a gap between the nostalgia I might feel and how those productions hold up through a modern lens, and I’d want to explore it in funny and sometimes serious ways.   

If people aren’t into short stories, where’s a good place to start?
Dawnie: I’m biased, but The Secret Lives of Church Ladies! Deesha’s stories are immersive and incredibly juicy (literary fiction needs more juice, I say). Or a newbie might start with one of the linked collections I mention above, to read stories that can stand alone but also have characters or a setting in common.

What do each of you bring to the show? How are you similar, how are you different?
Dawnie: Because I’m a novelist and feel like I’m still learning the mechanics of shorter forms, I’m always asking writers, in geeky and awestruck ways, about how they know what’s part of a story and what’s not. Probably my biggest curiosity has to do with how and where to end, because that’s my own struggle when I try to write short fiction. Both Deesha and I are interested in craft AND content, but sometimes I just like to go quiet and listen to her and our guests commiserate on their processes. 

What’s a podcast you love that everyone already knows about?
Deesha: I love my friend Damon Young’s podcast, “Stuck with Damon Young.” He goes deep and he’s hilarious, just like in his writing.

Dawnie: I already mentioned Traci Thomas’ “The Stacks,” so here’s a shoutout to “You’re Wrong About.” It’s so smart and entertaining, and has a great mix of topics. 

What’s a podcast you love that nobody knows about?
I hope they’re thriving, but just in case: I love “Sexvangelicals,” a podcast about sexuality and religion.

Thanks, Dawnie and Deesha!