Jesse Lou Lawson and Holly Casio

Jesse Lou Lawson (they/them) is a radio producer and youth worker born the year Streets of Philadelphia came out. They perform drag as @butchspringsteen_drag.  jesselawson.me 

Holly Casio (they/she) makes queer zines and diy comics about mental health, pop culture, and Bruce Springsteen. Their zine series Me and Bruce charts their lifelong obsession with The Boss, and their debut graphic memoir Looking for Bruce documents their spiritual pilgrimage to New Jersey in order to somehow find the real Bruce Springsteen. They do not know how to like things a normal amount @hollycasio coolschmool.com

They are both the co-hosts of Because the Boss Belongs to Us.

Describe Because the Boss Belongs to Us in 10 words or less.
JLL: Important, serious, scientific mission getting Bruce Springsteen Queer Icon Credentials.

Can you explain the mission of the show a little more?
HC: We just know, deep in our souls that Bruce Springsteen *IS* a queer icon but in order to prove it to the world we embark on a thorough journalistic investigation. We speak with leading experts: queer artists, writers, activists, and fans in this deeply scientific exploration of Bruce Springsteen as a queer icon; discussing his fashion, his camp appeal, his lyrics, and the deep lore surrounding him.

You told me you’ve been working on it forever. What took so long?!
JLL: Yeah! So Holly and I have been talking about this since 2020. I spent 3 years trying pitching it to anyone I could find, and simply but no-one wanted to commission it. Then, in summer 2022, I was put in touch with Jazmine (JT) Green when I was on holiday in New York - someone was like ‘you’re both queer audio producers, you should be pals’. We met and shot the shit and through that I told her about this idea that I had been trying to convince someone to pay me for, for years. She just turned around and was like ‘Do you know I run a production company? Do you want to pitch through me?’ and the rest is history! Jazmine found us iHeart, our distributor, and we started production last October.

How did making the show change you as a human?
HC: I know we joke about being serious journalists when really I just love to listen to my own opinions, but I learned so much about queer icons, about camp, about music, and fandom. I mean I’ve read Susan Sontag, and I had strong opinions on the Met Gala, but it wasn’t until doing this show that I finally understood what Camp is. 

 And that came from the amazing experts and guests we had on the show as well as the check-ins we did with each other as hosts -  questioning making a silly show about Bruce Springsteen when the world is burning. Having this show to work on was key to carving out some queer joy. 

What did making the show teach you about yourself?
JLL: That I should have prepared more to spend so much time listening to my own voice! Producing + hosting is wild, I don’t know how Americans do it. 

And that there’s a whole community of people that value the kind of brain that, as Holly said, doesn’t not know how to like things a normal amount.

Holly, how are you and Jesse similar and how are you different?
HC: I sometimes feel out of place in Springsteen fandom; as we mention in the show it’s predominantly a white cis straight male fan culture which can be frustrating. But to meet Jesse and feel on the same page about politics and activism and queer solidarity and not have to compartmentalise these things when talking about Bruce was just an absolute dream!

I also know absolutely nothing about making podcasts and the world of audio so I feel so grateful to be guided by Jesse:  a total expert and legend who doesn’t believe in gatekeeping and wants to share all the skills and knowledge.

Jesse, how are you and Holly similar and how are you different?
Something that I have been so thankful throughout working together is Holly and I are very aligned in our politics - and I mean that in the broadest sense: our core values, our attitudes to work, our views on Palestinian liberation, the world we are fighting to build, the ways we do friendship etc. And so it’s meant we have a kind of shorthand that makes working together much easier - I really trust their opinions and admire the way they are in the world, and that’s just been a joy! 

A very challenging difference when we started working together was that I am a big fan of Springsteen’s country album Western Stars, which Holly was very skeptical about. High tension situation. But, I came to respect our differences. And, ultimately, Holly went on their own journey with it, and now might even be a bigger fan of the album than me! They have a whole theory about Bruce Springsteen being a Horse Girlie that deserves its own PHD.

What Bruce lyric is the most essential to your theory that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon?
HC: ‘I wanna change my clothes, my hair, my face’ from Dancing in the Dark is an iconic line that resonates with so many queer and trans Bruce fans about being visible and seen and recognised and authentic. 

But recently the line we keep coming back to is from a song called Badlands:

For the ones who had a notion

A notion deep inside

That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive

I wanna find one face

That ain't looking through me

I wanna find one place

I wanna spit in the face of these badlands.

Tell me this isn’t an anthem of queer rage and queer solidarity and queer survival and the pursuit of queer joy! 

Fill in the blank: You will like Because the Boss Belongs to Us if you like _______.
JLL: You’ll like our show if you like that feeling of being so completely obsessed with something that you totally lose track of what it is, and what you’ve turned it into in your head.

How would you feel if this podcast got to Bruce and he wanted to talk to you about it? Do you want it to get to him? Is that the goal?
HC: I want to live in a world where Bruce Springsteen doesn’t know what podcasts are. Including the one he did with Obama. It simply doesn’t exist.

JLL: J’agree. We go into this a bit more in Episode 4 of the show, but we’re not sure how politically aligned we are with Bruce Sprignsteen? A centrist dad podcast is not really our vibe. Eeek don’t hate us Bruce!

HC: I often think I want to be best friends with Bruce but I think that the real Bruce Springsteen will never live up to the imagined queer icon Bruce Springsteen which lives in our collective imaginations. 

JLL: Yeah we’ve done so much talking about this throughout the series. How much of fan culture - especially queer fan culture - is about the actual person you’re stanning, versus the perfect personality you’ve made up in your head?

The sound and style of this show is really beautiful, personal, it feels homemade in the best way. How would you describe it?
JLL: Ahh thanks I love that description. Holly makes extremely sick zines, and I wanted to kind of nod to that DIY, scratchy, up front aesthetic in sound. I’m a fan of using lots of different textures + creating little scenes, and being quite light touch mixing wise - like not trying to clean up all audio so it sounds like it’s from a studio. Huge huge huge props to Talk Bazaar - who wrote all the incredible music in the series, and to Michelle Macklem our mixer - who’s work I admire so much.

If you could make another podcast, don’t worry about the logistics or whether or not anyone will like it, what would it be? Your budget is $1M.
HC: A deep scientific exploration into my other unsung queer icons also from New Jersey: My Chemical Romance.

Are there too many podcasts?
JLL: I guess my concern that’s related to this question, is how are profit targets shaping what podcasts we hear, and who gets to make them? I think there’s a big emphasis in the industry to make work that is extreme / shocking / ‘binge worthy’, and often attached to a celebrity presenter, because there’s a need to get listeners quickly and make money off ads. 

This doesn’t leave so much space for stories with a different politics, with nuance, featuring people who don’t have big socials followings. Lots of commissioners can turn this stuff down in the name of being ‘risk averse,’ which I think is kind of homogenizing the podcasts we hear on big platforms. 

This, in combination with small budgets and overworked teams, can also often lead to an extractive or exploitative way of working with contributors, and a sensationalist way of telling stories. 

I obviously think it’s important for shows to be entertaining! But I think it’s possible to do that with subtlety, creativity and respect. And loads of producers are doing that! But also need to make money to pay their rent, you know?

What’s one podcast you love that everyone already knows about?
HC: My 2 all time favourite podcasts are Sagittarian Matters by Nicole J Georges, and also Poor Lass by Seleena Daye and Em Ledger. As a big diy zinester it’s no surprise that my 2 fave podcasts are by other zine makers and sound super diy and lo-fi and fun to make. 
But maybe a more well known podcast is Bad Gays which I love so dearly and has taught me so much.

What’s one podcast you love that not enough people know about?
JLL: I’ve just started listening to Resurrection by Dane Stewart, I would 200% recommend to a friend! My other all time favourite show is The View From Somewhere by Lewis Raven Wallace - a hard recommend for everyone, but especially people working in journalism and the audio industry.

What should I have asked you that I did not?
HC: What is my favourite all-time butch dyke look from Bruce Springsteen? Hard to pick just one, but give me soft butch Tunnel of Love era Bruce anyday

JLL: YES great question Holly! And for me, a trans fag, I have to point everyone towards this ultimate twink era Bruce photo - it fills me with pure joy. Look at that jacket. Look at that pout. Perfection.

Thanks, Jesse and Holly!